Jakarta bomb

[den]

This morning's news says 16 are confirmed dead, 150 are injured. It looks like some arse-hole from Jamal Islamir drove a van into the covered driveway in front of the motel and set it off.

The PM has offered the Indonesians the use and resources of the Federal Police to help track down the killers.

Comments

[makovette.livejournal.com]

Which is why, despite much protestation world wide, the US still has B52, B1's and M1A1's.

The only thing we can do to prevent more of this in the future is to stamp the bastards into the ground like so many cockroaches. Mollycoddling them doesn't work...

Regretfully,
Mako

[(Anonymous)]

I should damned well know better, but I can't sit by and watch -that- go by.

Maybe it's the attitude that Americans are the rightful owners and enforcers of the world at large that makes us unlawful mollycoddled non-Americans angry. But I don't suppose, since I'm a non-American*, that I'd be qualified to have an opinion about what makes me angry.

-Rust

*: There are Americans, non-Americans, American non-Americans, and non-American Americans. I'm a non-American non-American, personally.

[makovette.livejournal.com]

It's all sounding good until it's your son/daughter/mother/father or even YOU who's body is blown into great bloody chunks by terrorists isn't it?

Then who you gonna call? Ask the people of Monrovia who are begging the US to get involved. How about the Kosovo Muslims or the Somalia Christians and Animists who are enslaved (!in 2003!) by their Muslim countrymen.

Fact of the matter is the US and it's few remaining allies are it. Label it megalomania if you wish, but the reality is it's the reality of the situation. Get over it.

We're bumbling and fumbling indeed, but no one else gives enough of a damn to send their own citizens over to some god forsaken hell hole to at least make the attempt at setting things to right is there?

We aren't there because we think it's spiffy and profitable to Mcdonald-fy the 3rd world. We're there because of the evil bastards who think it's tre' sheik in the name of Allah to blow innocent people into f'ing hamburger or fly airplanes into tall buildings or spray nerve gas on the Kurds or whatever other horror passes for god/allah justified logic in their warped little bug minds.

Hitler taught us that trying to appease evil men doesn't work and is nothing more than a long road straight into hell. One does not negotiate with the devil who has sworn to blow you and your countrymen to bits.

I stand by my statement that under no circumstances should the civilized world do anything less than destroy these terrorists by gun or prison cell, which ever is the most expedient.

Mako

[(Anonymous)]

"We aren't there because we think it's spiffy and profitable to Mcdonald-fy the 3rd world."

You just be sure to let me know when America and it's Coalition of Economic Duress allocate forces to protect the farmers of Nepal against Maoist extremists, to defuse the hundreds of thousands of tons of unexploded ordnance they formerly dropped on the civilian population of Laos, or glance sidelong at any foreign nation of low economic or political value. Hm? I'll be waiting right here: othrside@bmts.com

[(Anonymous)]

Just to be clear on the matter, I'm keen on seeing justice done where truly applicable. But no bomber, fighter jet, tank or missile has ever meted out anything that resembled justice to any but the most bloodthirsty and indiscriminate. Which, thanks be to the modern media, describes pretty much everybody these days.

-Rust

[makovette.livejournal.com]

These are the most bloodthirsty and indiscriminate we are targeting and to whom I am referring. They just blew up a freaking hotel, and a week ago a hospital in Russia and before that...

You can bet your bippy that there is nothing like a B1 strike to drive the stake of justice through a terrorists heart.

Personally if I had the resources and the intestinal fortitude, I'd go into Somalia and the surrounding areas and wipe out slavery there forever too. The fact that the Western world tolerates it is unforgivable and reprehensible. I suppose that makes me an ugly American Imperialist too eh?

There are morally just causes in which the US and it's allies must take the lead. Stomping terrorists into the dirt and destroying slavery in Africa meet that criteria in my world view. If you and your countrymen have a problem with that, I'm sorry.

A dissident protests, a terrorist kills. Be a dissident, that's fine, but the instant you and your cronies put match to fuse, may iron bombs rain from the sky upon your head.

Mako

[mrfnord.livejournal.com]

A minor problem with raining iron bombs down on their heads is that iron bombs raineth upon the just and the unjust in equal measure. Unless of course DARPA has finally perfected those bombs which kill only the Guilty.

To wit, how many innocents are you willing to kill to get one terrorist? And how many is too many?

I await your reply,

Joshua Abraham Norton

[makovette.livejournal.com]

Number of innocents I'm willing to kill == 0, presumably you're in agreement on this point.

Carpet bombing has thankfully gone the way of Bomber Harris. We do the best we can to minimize, but we're not perfect and yes, the horrors of war are visited upon the innocent as ever it was despite the best intentions and massive amount of treasure spent to minimize it.

I suggest that the terrorists could hang up their suicide vests, park their trucks bombs and end the killing on both sides completely and immediately, but that is perhaps too sane a suggestion to be taken seriously.

Number of terrorists I am willing to allow to have free reign to blow up hotels, hospitals &ct out of fear of injuring innocents == 0 too.

These goals are in direct conflict with each other, I'm not blind nor stupid. Nor am I willing to sit here and allow terrorists to slit our throats whenever they get a hair up their arse. The world has a way of coming down to Us vs. Them.

This latest Muslim terrorism is being exported world wide. The terrorists have deliberately bloodied the West and told us in no uncertain terms that they are out to destroy us all in a throw back to the old "Convert or Die" mentality of pre-Renaissance days.

There is not one whit of interest in "diversity of religions" or "toleration of other cultures" in their rhetoric. It's all kill the infidel and take all that his is, because Allah says not only that you can, but that you are obligated to do so.

That means literally you and me my friend. Do some Googling for the text of Bin Ladin's speeches if you doubt me...

'nuf cluttering of gentle Batty's LJ on this I think...

Mako

[(Anonymous)]

"These are the most bloodthirsty and indiscriminate we are targeting and to whom I am referring. They just blew up a freaking hotel, and a week ago a hospital in Russia and before that... "

... All the civilian water treatment plants in Baghdad. Film at 11:00, but not on CNN. If you truly believe in what you're saying, watch PBS for a while. Can't claim it isn't American.

Bet you didn't know that Iraq was desperately attempting to dismantle its missiles as demanded before the invasion, which prompted Bush and his cronies to bump up the schedule. It wouldn't do, to have a war where the enemy failed to show up. So many little things you don't know, and probably won't accept because it's "unpatriotic".

Do you know what patriotism is? It's about loyalty to a nation - certainly not to a flag or a government. When the government is wrong, a patriot steps in to stop the government. Similarly, freedom is not a french fry - yes, FRENCH fry, or chip if you want to get British about it. Freedom is a state of liberty. Liberty of thought and word and deed. And terrorism is an act of terror and destruction against a civiliation population for the purpose of compelling political change, and has extremely little to do with, say, Iraq and its rather vaporous stockpile of ambiguous "weapons of mass destruction".

You, Sir, are ignorant and dogmatic, and I deem you a mind controlled by the State.

-Rust

[dewhitton.livejournal.com]

Hiya Rust! Good to see your name again.

Everyone can express an opinion in my journal, even non-United Statians like you (and me!), and I know what your temper's like so I understand why you wrote like that. Relax a bit. My journal is a "kick back, open a beer and let's talk" place. We don't get cranky with each other.

There are a lot of Yanks who don't like what their government does in their name. Mako's one of the Good Guys. He knows there's a world outside the US, he's just angry about these bastards.

batty

[(Anonymous)]

Hey Batty. Sorry for popping up in my usual way. I've been watching your journal for a while now, but I seldom speak unless I have something to say. And... well, this is what I'm like when I have something to say.

As for Mako, I'm sure he's just great. But the entire world's been having American flags waved in their faces for a while now, and for a lot of people the reaction has changed from fear to anger. I can't approach the situation any longer without feeling complete rage at America and its 'patriotic' minds. Untold numbers have been victimized under the current American adiministration, and the American people themselves aren't the least of the victims. It's damned frustrating, watching the flag-wavers happily cheer on a political agenda which hurts even them. Cheer on the blood and guts you never see because it's been sanitized by five thousand miles and a biased news agency. Cheer on tightened security that allows anybody to be held indefinitely on a trumped up charge. Cheer on the character assasination of celebrities they used to love because they spoke in an "unpatriotic" manner. Sort of ruins your faith in the human mind, you know? I might feel better if I saw just one American flying my flag as a gesture of friendship. I see American flags everywhere I go here, and there's damned few Americans. Even here, in Canada, where we're supposed to love peace and freedom - real freedom. It's as if Americans are the only people who count for anything, any more.

There's too much to say, and in my experience, the people who need to hear it won't listen anyways. I'd may as well quit preaching.

-Rust

[makovette.livejournal.com]

I was in Desert Storm v1.0. Ever looked inside an Iraq tank after it's taken a depleted uranium round?

Have you seen the results of an A10+F16 strike on a Republican Guard convoy?

Have you seen what that Republican Guard did to Kuwait City's population or the Marsh Arabs?

No lecturing me on victims or the horrors of war or the joke of a Media 'k?

Please, I'm not waving an American flag, I'm waving reality here. These people are out to kill you and everyone else you know. Terorism is personal. How do you negotiate with a truck bomb?

'nuff, we're both done me thinks.

Mako

[(Anonymous)]

I'm Canadian. I don't deal with truck bombs at all, unless I'm planning a trip to Montreal, but that's a whole other can of worms. Canada, by and large, keeps its nose out of other nations' business. It shows respect for other nations and peoples. I don't know the current state of this, but it used to be that wearing a Canadian flag as a traveler just about guaranteed hospitality almost anywhere. And I'm not saying that Canada is superior, but we -are- generally viewed as non-combatants. A mutual respect sort of thing. It works.

And hey, everybody is a person. I guess maybe you can't afford to think that way or you couldn't do your job, but... if I were running the show, the first focus would be a change of foreign policy, and then justice delivered by an International court, not unilateral bombing. The people of Baghdad were still waiting on utilities and fresh water, last I could stand to pay attention. This shouldn't have been inflicted on them.

And to twfarlan, thank you - I think you must be talking to me? I'll get back to you about this on the weekend one way or the other, okay?

-Rust

[twfarlan.livejournal.com]

You sir are in need of an LJ code... or perhaps more correctly, LJ is in desperate need of another well-spoken person to grace its pages. If you'd like a code, please tell me and I'll be happy to email you one.

[zibblsnrt.livejournal.com]

And everyone knows how well those work against guerillas...

[dewhitton.livejournal.com]

I don't have a lot of faith in the "Death From above" method of getting rid of terrorists. Too many people get hurt and turn their sympathies to the terrorists, so you end up with more than you started bombing.

Too many countries are aiding the bastards by denying they exist within their boarders and/or actively funding their operations. I don't think the Sept11 report should have been edited to protect the Saudis. It should be a finger poking in their chest, going "You helped these people!" All the early evidence was pointing there, but then suddenly we do a right-turn to Iraq.

I didn't agree with the war in Iraq (although removing Saddam was a Good Thing) because *that* wasn't where the terrorists were. Iraq should have been on the secondary 'to-do' list. I'm sure if the US* put all the Attack Iraq resources into getting the people behind Sept11, they would. I'm certain they could do it without the host country being aware of it until after the event. I'd like to see the perpertrators brought to justice, but failing that... trailing elipses.

*I single out your country because I believe it's the only one with the resources to do this. Au and UK are just wannabe players in this field.

[makovette.livejournal.com]

Death from Above is hyperbolic, agreed, but cruise missiles are damn good at killing the cockroaches with as little mayhem against innocent as possible provided intelligence is solid which it never is 100% of the time.

So do we launch a missle at a house where terrorists who are plotting to blow up a hotel may be or not? That's a huge decision to make, look at the possible outcomes:

Launch the missle and miss the terrorist due to bad intel or bad luck, whatever. Innocents may die in the house, and the terrorists carry out the attack, killing more innocents.

Don't launch the missle, no innocents in the house are dead, but the hotel gets blown up by terrorists.

Launch and kill the terrorists and innocents, no hotel bombing, no further attacks from the roaches. Was this worth it?

My value system says yes. Others want a magic silver bullet that only takes out the bad guys. Totally unrealistic and naive in my view.

Launch and just kill the terrorists - the ideal outcome, but I'd imagine rather rare.

It's hard to make the launch choice but how can the military not launch given the probability of the terrorists blowing up another building?

What happens when the Public discovers the military blew a chance to kill the bad guys?

That question was asked in Afghanistan when we held fire several times and missed killing some of the Al Queda cheeses who are still out there raising hell today...

There also is the lingering "How innocent are innocents that are in the same place with terrorists?" question. It's an easy answer with children and in most Islamic cultures, the women too, but for anyone else, well, you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

Agreed that Saddamn was a secondary target, and the the laser beam should have been turned up on the Saudi King, who is functionally non-functional and all but dead at this point. One of the billions of House of Saud princes runs the show now.

We are, I suspect, trying to keep the House of Saud from collapsing out of power at this point. The potential for an Islamic revolution fueled by Wahibism is a very real possibility when the old king dies. Putting a boot to Saddam's ass helps to stabilize the King in SA and route out radicals from SA itself, as they are all gung ho to go to Iraq to blow up US troops.

You ain't seen hell in the middle east until that Saudi civil war balloon goes up - it's going to make the current Iraq war look like a training camp exercise - these people will slaughter each other happily 24x7 down to the last goat.

Then you have Iran who may/not have nukes...

Ugh, sorry to bugger up your LJ Batty, apologies for the waves I've caused, I wasn't intending to go in to all this stuff. I'll back off now.

CYa!
Mako

PS: No problem at all with you singleing out the US, mainly because you're quite right.

AU and UK don't have their hands on the tiller, though they are doing a fine damn job trimming the sails and keeping the Capt. from going too far off course, for which I am very grateful.

Thanks to Canada too, as Ottowa is more than willing to make very loud and very squeaky noises to help steady the course.

[dewhitton.livejournal.com]

There is, as you say, no magic bullets. It would be nice if the bad guys could be removed without harming anyone else.

But war isn't nice. I'm truely greatful I don't have to make any of those decisions you mention.

I think the terrorists have shat in their nests. Countries that didn't have terrorists (eg S.A, Indonesia)have had incidents of home-grown terrorists hitting targets on their home turf and killing locals.